Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

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Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Tue Mar 19, 2019 3:54 pm

I have two strategies with this labeled different. In CDAN4, is the RPM input to the dashpot functions actual RPM or RPM-DSD RPM?

Derek's file labels all of them as RPM, will the core tuning file labels some of them as RPM-DSD RPM.

Thanks,
Rich
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Tue Mar 19, 2019 7:12 pm

Only the following two use RPM - DSDRPM for a Delta_RPM

fn830 dashpot pre-position offset
fn882a - dashpot max clip

the FN894 functions use N_RATCHET - DSDRPM for a filtered RPM for dashpot in overdrive with a locked converter

which is basically all the same thing but technically not
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Wed Mar 20, 2019 7:05 am

Thanks. That’s interesting. I’ve spent most of my time with FN882A. In both my strategies it is labeled as RPM.

Another question – with a manual trans, NO clutch switch, NO gear switch, NO speed sensor. Is FN882A the only dashpot function used?
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:51 am

fn882 is the max clip only u still got decay pre position and min clips
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:35 am

I’ve read your dashpot write-up more times than I care to admit, but I still have questions.

I understand decay rate. No more discussion needed.

Max clip, FN882A is the main function you discuss in your write up. However, you call it pre-position.

The pre-position function, FN830, you call offset, and you set to a constant value.

The min clips, FN894, you set to 0 to disable.

So, based on the idle write-up, doesn’t that simply leave me tuning FN882A? (And decay, but I’m happy with that).
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:20 pm

yep
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Wed Mar 20, 2019 8:29 pm

As always, thank you.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:56 am

I have a related follow on question. In closed loop idle control, what determines the maximum IAC duty cycle? Mine seems clipped at 57 percent. However, if I get into preposition at higher RPM, it will correctly go much higher. 57 percent isn't enough to keep it running on a cold start. Changing the startup air tables does not help. It's clearly related to closed loop idle feedback control.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:32 pm

nope its not

make sure your isc transfer fn8000 doesnt have goofy values in it
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:30 pm

It doesn't.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:34 am

Any other ideas?

It’s strange b/c it has enough idle air to hold RPM up during preposition and decay. It decays nicely into closed loop idle then falls on its face and konks out. after about 1 minute of running, the 57% is enough to keep it alive...barely.

This started after I swapped to a 03-04 Cobra style IAC. The 97 Cobra IAC worked fine. I changed the transfer function at that time and I think it’s all correct. Actually – the fact that it works in preposition tells us the transfer function is correct, right?
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:47 pm

no

if the only that changed was your isc transfer then the problem has to be there
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:25 pm

Well, I figured it out. Cold idle was failing so miserably that the computer could not respond fast enough to actually increase the duty cycle past 57 percent before stalling. Not sure why 57 percent was the last number data logged, but it happened for a few weeks straight. However, yesterday it was warmer here and it actually got to 99 percent before it stalled on a cold start. So I changed UPDATM from 5 to 1 and slowed down the decay rate a touch. My cold start today actually resulted in a slight hanging idle. So, I'm getting there.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:47 pm

updatm is the kam correction rate for the isc correction. If you need that in order to save a stall you have other problems

do u have startup enrichment dialed in?
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:39 pm

Oh, my strategy had that labeled as the ISC update rate. I had no idea it was the KAM correction rate. If I can keep idle from falling into closed loop, it idles fine. Seems to be that when I let it fall into the closed loop range, it falls right through it and stalls. Again, this is only for the first minute of run time. As for enrichment, it runs fine under load so I imagine it is dialed in enough to idle.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:41 pm

in that case you need to kick up the dsdrpm

take fn826a the ect startup dsdrpm adder and kick up the commanded idle rpm at that ect
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:15 am

Yeap, that would work. I kind of considered that a band aid so I was saving it as a last resort. But, maybe I'm out of options.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:16 am

Kicking up DSDRPM really helped. I added 125 RPM in the startup ECT vs RPM adder and set the timer at 75 seconds. That put it right where I wanted it. I was shocked. No surge, no hanging. It idles at about 1050 RPM and after a minute or so it is happy idling at 920, which is my setpoint. I have one thing that still bothers me a little. This is gnats a** type stuff…

I have a big oil cooler on this, so oil temp is slow to rise. I’m already running 0W20 oil. I get to 180F ECT and oil temp is barely 100F. So, for 5-10 minutes after ECT has reached 180F, my cold oil is added drag on the engine, and my idle settings aren’t perfect. I don’t quite have enough preposition and my RPM will sometimes dip to 700 RPM before it returns to 920 RPM (in closed loop idle control) if I coast down and let dashpot decay before clutching in (remember, no speed sensor, no clutch switch). It doesn’t stall, but it’s not great. This all occurs while ECT is at operating temp, so if I change something to correct it, I screw up everything when warm.

I already extended out the idle air startup tables to the max (600ish seconds if I remember right), but that still leaves me a range in time where I’m not covered. The colder it is outside, the more exaggerated the problem.

Any advice that is tune related? I know there are some hardware changes I could make, but I’m not ready to go there.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:38 am

no its no band aid thats why they are there

what did u do to the engine to require 0w20 oil ?

thats very bad your oil is so cold it should be at 212 deg F

with no vss the only option is to put more dashpot in it and decay it slower
you can also set the load for idle scalar to hold dashpot when load drops below idle load
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:30 pm

It's a fresh engine with fairly tight clearances. But really, why not run 0w20? It's a better oil than 5w20.

Anyways, what is the scalar to retain dashpot? Do I just set it below my idle load? Thanks.
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393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:32 pm

thats fine for break in

ill have to look for it and see what its name is, u can cross reference in gufx
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:50 pm

I think the scalar is LOWLOD. The car idles at 14 percent load . I set the scalar to 13 percent. It didn't change a thing. It was previously at 11 percent so I didn't have high hopes. Does this use a different preposition function?
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302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
Vehicle 3 Information: 95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
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Additional Vehicles: 62 Mercury Comet, LLX4, Moates QH
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Mon Apr 29, 2019 2:41 am

LOCKOUT LOGIC
*/

IF ( iscflg >= 1 )
THEN lockout_tmp = 1; /* stay in lockout until RPM falls */
ELSE_IF ( isctmr < ISCTM )
THEN lockout_tmp = 0; /* not time to sample RPM yet */
ELSE_IF ( fabs( n - nlast ) > NDIF )
THEN lockout_tmp = 0; /* RPM changing quickly, must be decel */
nlast = n; /* update nlast */
isctmr = 0; /* reset timer */
ELSE_IF ( ( TRLOAD >= 2 ) /* Auto or Manual with at least clutch
switch */
AND ( dndsup == 0 ) ) /* in Neutral */
THEN lockout_tmp = 1; /* can't be decel when in Neutral */
ELSE_IF ( ( ( accflg == 1 )
AND ( load < LOWLOD + ACLOD ) )
OR ( ( accflg == 0 )
AND ( load < LOWLOD ) ) )
THEN lockout_tmp = 0; /* (LOAD indicates decel) */
ELSE
lockout_tmp = 1;
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:54 pm

Some of that is Greek to me, but I see a clause where I need a clutch switch to satisfy the logic, and I don't have one. Do you agree the clutch switch is required?
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:08 pm

thats fine, you can adjust the isctm and ndif scalars to get it more stable
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:18 am

Interesting. So the factory value for NDIF is 1020 rpm and factory value for ISCTM is 2 seconds. My strategy doesn't access them, so they are stock right now. If I can get Core Tuning to provide access, would I lower both values to ensure the ECU recognizes a decel condition? And if it goes into lockout, does it hold the last dashpot value? Thanks for the help on this. This is an interesting approach I would have never figured out.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:01 pm

you have to play with them and see what your engine likes best

if your using BE you should definitely upgrade to sailorbobs cdan4 its on $25
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:25 pm

I'd still like to know, if it goes into lockout, does it hold dashpot? I already have sailorbob's cdan4 strategy, but I tuned this car using the core tuning strategy so there's no way for me to open it with Derek's strategy, and I've already spent a token on it, which I would lose if I overwrite with Derek's. It's frustrating.

I used the core tuning strategy because they organize all strategies the same and I have their strategies for a few other vehicles where sailorbob's stuff isn't available.
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:14 pm

not exactly but thats not what your trying to achieve

lockout=1 means locked out of rpm control

without having a vss, neutral switch or any other way to aid dashpot your only option is to get it in to idle control mode as quickly as possible so it has some kind of chance of saving the engine on decel

I can't give you any more info as I've never tried to do what your trying to do exactly
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Tue May 07, 2019 7:56 pm

I haven't been able to play with ISCTM and NDIF scalars. Still no update from Core Tuning to enable those parameters. However, I have improved it some by adjusting my throttle body stop to the point where without spark control, it will idle slightly higher than desired idle. With spark control, it idles at desired idle. This really helps save it on the decels where dashpot is gone before I ever clutch in. I clipped the negative ISCKAM correction at -.050. None of this is ideal, but it seems to help.
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Vehicle 2 Information: 92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
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393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
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32V 4.6L, IMRC delete, stock rebuild

Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Tue May 07, 2019 8:36 pm

sounds ideal to me thats how i do all of my tunes regardless

make sure your idle spark isnt going so low that your headers glow red and eventually crack welds
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
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Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby GT_Rich » Wed May 08, 2019 6:16 am

Cast manifolds FTW! Not much else fits.

On average I would say idle spark is 15-18. Right now I'm not letting it go lower than 12.
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Posts: 83
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Vehicle Information: 65 Mustang Vert, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, F-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Vortech T-trim s/c, 60 lb/hr inj, Methanol injection, PMAS HPX blow-thru MAF, 400 lph pump.
Vehicle 2 Information: 92 Mustang GT, A9L, Moates QH, Innovate LM-2 WB
302 w/ TF heads, B-cam, ported GT-40 lower/tubular upper, Powerdyne BD-11 s/c, 42 lb/hr inj, 75 mm Pro-M MAF, 255 lph pump.
Vehicle 3 Information: 95 Lightning, ICY1, Moates QH, Innovate LC-1 WB
393 w/ TF heads, custom cam, GT-40 lower/tubular upper, 30 lb/hr inj, speed density. E4OD trans.
Additional Vehicles: 62 Mercury Comet, LLX4, Moates QH
32V 4.6L, IMRC delete, stock rebuild

Re: Input to Dashpot in CDAN4

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 08, 2019 7:04 am

that wont give you any problems usually 4 degrees nascar style and things heat up pretty quick
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
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03 Marauder - DyShyKy
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