Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

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Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby pancakeshake » Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:00 pm

decipha wrote:youfn513 the wot threshold doesn't use TP it uses TPREL so at closed throttle TPREL should be 0

1000-150 == 850 TPREL at WOT


...to 550 @1300 RPM (400+150 = 550 TP REL, correct?)...

Ok so 400 TP REL = 550 TP in my case. I guess I just typed that in backwards.

decipha wrote:lambse gets pulled from perload, so whatever perload your at it gets yanked from the base fuel table, everything is interpolated


So regardless if you are in OL or CL, fuel is interpolated via the base fuel table? I guess there is no reason for it not to be. I am just double checking to see if there is some scalar somewhere that changes fuel values when I enter OL.
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Current: Chipped T4M0, 503/573. Runs between 9.5-11.5 for AFR.
Project: QH tune with TunerPro, add IAC, cleanup my cold start issues, smooth out tune

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby decipha » Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:04 pm

instead of all the confusion and calculating just stop logging TP and log TP_REL

correct, 400 TPREL + 150 RATCH == 550 TP

no in closed loop the o2 sensors control fuel there is no adjustment for closed loop since the lambses swing to make the o2's switch

if your running a base t4m0 tune then yes there is modifiers to commanded fuel, the t4m2 has it simplified

post your tune and i'll take a look to help you out specifically
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Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby pancakeshake » Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:33 pm

We got some snow last week, just got back on the road today.

So, on steady half throttle pulls I start seeing high 15's into the 16's as I get above 2.0 MAFV. I am seeing this consistently on my wideband. The problem is im not getting consistent results in the data log. I'll hold and log 2.5 MAFV on one log and get 1.04 fuel error, and then 1.23 error on the very next attempt.

I assume that because my wideband is ready consistent (and reading lean) I should add some fuel there.

Question: If my KAMS read "1" during a good pull, what does that mean? Ill see a few different values, then a bunch of "1's" right in a row.

I posted a few logs here. Not sure if you can see anything. The "2.5" and "2525" are both short logs of me pulling up to roughly 2.5 MAFV and holding it there. The "dr1" and "dr2" are 3rd gear steady pulls. I was trying to climb to redline, but saw 16 AFR and lifted on each attempt.
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Current: Chipped T4M0, 503/573. Runs between 9.5-11.5 for AFR.
Project: QH tune with TunerPro, add IAC, cleanup my cold start issues, smooth out tune

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby decipha » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:34 pm

your severely rich and need to lean it out, i don't see anything your talking about in those 2 logs i looked at, they both show your wayy too rich
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Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby pancakeshake » Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:13 pm

pancakeshake wrote:So, on steady half throttle pulls I start seeing high 15's into the 16's as I get above 2.0 MAFV. I am seeing this consistently on my wideband. The problem is im not getting consistent results in the data log. I'll hold and log 2.5 MAFV on one log and get 1.04 fuel error, and then 1.23 error on the very next attempt.


decipha wrote:your severely rich and need to lean it out, i don't see anything your talking about in those 2 logs i looked at, they both show your wayy too rich


Oops I did the math wrong. My calculated error is showing rich now.

Ill start with the factory MAF data again and re-work my curve tonight.

Just to make sure im clear... REDUCING the airflow (kg/hr) column on the MAF curve REDCUCES fuel. Correct?

Is there any reason why I am seeing between 1%-5% rich at 1.99 MAFV and 10%-13% rich once I tip over 2.00 MAFV?
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Current: Chipped T4M0, 503/573. Runs between 9.5-11.5 for AFR.
Project: QH tune with TunerPro, add IAC, cleanup my cold start issues, smooth out tune

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby decipha » Thu Mar 14, 2019 5:41 pm

I edited your posted to reword the self insults which are discouraged here lol

honest mistake no harm no foul, at least you learned and won't be doing that again

no, reducing the maf reduces the airflow (airmass) not the fuel. It does however reduce the air to fuel ratio effectively leaning the engine out though.

your fueling is inconsistent because your maf needs to be dialed in. If after you get your maf dialed in you have inconsistent AFRs at a given mafv then your injectors would need to be dialed in. But first you must dial in the maf assuming your injectors are genuine siemens deka 60s. If you have fake injectors which are pretty common being that the siemens injectors are the most copied injectors ever made then you will find you won't be able to get your fueling consistent and accurate.
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Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby pancakeshake » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:09 pm

decipha wrote:your fueling is inconsistent because your maf needs to be dialed in.


Ok, so once I realized that I was doing some incorrect math I decided to start from scratch. I used the factory provided data for the MAF flowrates/voltages. I went out for a drive and held my MAFV at 1.5, 1.75, 2 and 2.25. I did two "pulls" for each voltage value and used the data logs to calculate my fuel error (Lambda-LAMBSE+KAM).

The (Pre-Mod) data logs are with the factory flow data. The (Post-Mod) data logs are after I did the MAF curve corrections using the fuel error calculation mentioned above.

Pull1(Pre-Mod).xdl - Average fuel errors for each MAFV value.
1.50 - 1.120
1.75 - 1.154
2.00 - 1.136
2.25 - 1.100

Pull2(Pre-Mod).xdl - Average fuel errors for each MAFV value.
1.50 - 0.995
1.75 - 1.012
2.00 - 1.007
2.25 - 1.051

Pull1(Post-Mod).xdl - Average fuel errors for each MAFV value.
1.50 - 0.837
1.75 - 0.925
2.00 - 0.943
2.25 - 0.888

Pull2(Post-Mod).xdl - Average fuel errors for each MAFV value.
1.50 - 0.824
1.75 - 0.911
2.00 - 0.939
2.25 - 0.940

On my steady pulls (Pre-Mod) data logs I had a fuel errors between 10%-15% then on the very next attempt I had fuel errors between 0%-5%. Both LEAN.

On my steady pulls (Post-Mod) data logs I had fuel errors between 6%-17% then on the very next attempt I had fuel errors between 6%-18%. Both RICH.

So...
- (Pre-Mod) logs don't agree. They seem very different between the two pulls.
- (Post-Mod) logs agree. They are pretty close at each MAFV point.

I feel like i'm missing something in this process. The Lambda-LAMBSE+KAM in CL seems very straight forward and I feel like I understand why it works and i'm doing the math correct now. Why is my fueling so erratic?

I posted the logs. They are short, but if anyone can see anything funky in there let me know.

Thanks in advance!
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Current: Chipped T4M0, 503/573. Runs between 9.5-11.5 for AFR.
Project: QH tune with TunerPro, add IAC, cleanup my cold start issues, smooth out tune

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby decipha » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:50 am

i dont understand why your doing all this extra work and making a very simple task extremely difficult

it should take no more than 10 seconds to get the fuel dialed in. Simply hold a set mafv point for 10 seconds and let it stabilize. The fuel error gauge will tell you exactly how much u need to correct. Make the correction and go back to that mafv point and it should be perfect. If it isn't then something is wrong and you have other issues.
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Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby gamh44 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:18 am

pancakeshake

Just looking at one of your logs it looks like you are not holding steady at any MAFV points, rather running, quite steadily I might add, though from around 1.5 to 2.5 MAV.

As decipha says, you need to hold the MAFV at a constant value (say 1.5V) for around 10s then move to the next MAFV point. It is easiest to just use the MAFV values that are in your MAF Table.

Then, there is a FE% value that TPRT calculates for you. It is on the EEC IV dash at least. Rather than picking data off the dash though, TPRT can display History Tables (two icons to the right of the Show Data Dash icon). If you record a log of a bunch of steady MAFV runs, play the log with the HIST_MAF Table open and set the View to Running Average. The values will give you the FE% at each IMAF point (convert to VMAF as required).

Once you have this, you can go back to the MAF function and multiply each point (airflow) by the FE%. Next time you do a run at that MAFV value, the FE% should be 0, or at least a lot closer to.

Of course, this is just a summary of decipha's notes on the Custom Tuning Step 1 of 3 page.

Good luck.
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Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby decipha » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:40 pm

thats what I do. Thats why I wrote the histogram and put the fuel error gauge in there.

No need in making things more difficult
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Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby pancakeshake » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:45 pm

So too keep things short, I started logging and using the "Fuel_Error" to adjust my fuel rather than the "Lambda-Lamsbse+KAM" method. It seems to work better. However, I am still having problems getting things dialed in on the road. I might just try and get to a dyno and rent it for an hour.

Anyway, is there a chance someone can take a look at the attached log? This is a drive after I was able to get 0-2.0 MAFV dialed in pretty decent (I think). You can see I'm having major issues with any WOT stab. I just go insanely lean instantly.
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Current: Chipped T4M0, 503/573. Runs between 9.5-11.5 for AFR.
Project: QH tune with TunerPro, add IAC, cleanup my cold start issues, smooth out tune

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby decipha » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:46 pm

the fuel error is the same thing, if you calculated it correctly you would arrive at the same value since thats what the fuel error gauge is doing

its very unwise to use a dyno to dial in closed loop, you have to simulate driving on a road much better off actually driving it on a road rather than pretending to

by it leaning out linearly its obvious you have a major fuel supply problem, most like a bad pump or a clogged fuel filter
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91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
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98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby pancakeshake » Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:22 pm

decipha wrote:the fuel error is the same thing


Ill check that tonight and verify my setup.

decipha wrote:its very unwise to use a dyno to dial in closed loop, you have to simulate driving on a road much better off actually driving it on a road rather than pretending to


Noted. Ill continue street tuning it.

decipha wrote:by it leaning out linearly its obvious you have a major fuel supply problem, most like a bad pump or a clogged fuel filter


So I have a brand new pump and filter installed from only 50 miles ago. However, I agree that it could be fuel delivery related. See that attached logs. These show steady MAFV holds at 1.50, 1.75, and 2.00. On the 1.5 and 1.75 logs you can see the fuel error stabilizes and remains constant for 20 seconds without any sign of moving. The 2.0 MAFV test shows the fuel error dip, and continue to dip, after only 8 seconds or so. More MAFV, more fuel needed, and its going lean.

Thoughts?

Anyone know of a clever way to data log fuel pressure using a pressure gauge?
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pancakeshake
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Vehicle Information: '83 Capri: 351w Roller, 3550, Intercooled 70mm On3, GT40X, F303, Shootout EFI, 60# Deka, BA5000, McLeod 75307.

Current: Chipped T4M0, 503/573. Runs between 9.5-11.5 for AFR.
Project: QH tune with TunerPro, add IAC, cleanup my cold start issues, smooth out tune

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby decipha » Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:21 pm

no thoughts needed, I wasn't telling you what I think I was telling you whats wrong, you have a major fuel supply problem.
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90 (4x 5spds) - Dante, Ruby, Daja, Ava
91 4r70w - Skarlett
92 (2x) 5spd & auto - Bianqa, Andrea
93 auto - Danika
94 5spd Rionda
95 auto Aisha
Vehicle 2 Information: Others:
00 Lincoln LS - Luanda
98 Camaro SS - Bounquisha
02 Harley F-150 - Sasasha
03 Marauder - DyShyKy
00 Explorer 5L - Bernyce
07 GMC 2500HD 6L - Veranafer

Re: Getting Started... tuning my cbaza car

Unread postby pancakeshake » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:15 am

decipha wrote:no thoughts needed, I wasn't telling you what I think I was telling you whats wrong, you have a major fuel supply problem.


Well at least this explains my frustrations while trying to figure out fuel at higher RPMs. Thanks!
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Vehicle Information: '83 Capri: 351w Roller, 3550, Intercooled 70mm On3, GT40X, F303, Shootout EFI, 60# Deka, BA5000, McLeod 75307.

Current: Chipped T4M0, 503/573. Runs between 9.5-11.5 for AFR.
Project: QH tune with TunerPro, add IAC, cleanup my cold start issues, smooth out tune

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