Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

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Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:01 pm

If you add or subtract fuel using the MAF transfer what happens when the computer goes into Closed Loop?

For example, I know for a fact from using the WMS SDS speed density system that my engine like to cruise around nice and smooth on the richer side of things around 13.5:1.

So with the EEC-IV A9L2 when fuel changes are made, won't they just be ignored when the computer goes into closed loop as it tries to bring it back to 14.7:1?

I have only just started with the basics of the A9L2, so if this is discussed in the write ups, I haven't got there yet.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby SlowBox » Tue May 01, 2018 8:37 am

They won't be ignored. The ecu will trim lambse back until the hegos switch, and kams will eventually update so the computer doesn't have to find stoich each time you reenter that cell.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Tue May 01, 2018 12:01 pm

theres only one way to dial in fuel, read the fuel write up again, wideband must match lambse

in closed loop the hegos can only switch at stoich which is a lambda and should be a lambse of 1

if your engine doesnt like running at stoich then you cant run closed loop

simply go to the area in the fuel table where you want your commanded fuel and plug the value in there
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Tue May 01, 2018 4:03 pm

Would it be possible to set the commanded AFR at 13.5 or so at cruise and idle and have it run at that?
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Tue May 01, 2018 5:25 pm

yep

simply go to the area in the fuel table where you want your commanded fuel and plug the value in there might

be sure to force open loop by setting fn320a the open loop ect threshold to 0 perload
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Tue May 08, 2018 7:13 pm

decipha wrote:yep

simply go to the area in the fuel table where you want your commanded fuel and plug the value in there might

be sure to force open loop by setting fn320a the open loop ect threshold to 0 perload


I've been driving around the car making changes to the MAF curve, but the results are not good. Calculations are telling me to add to the MAF curve, but it makes it so rich it won't run or idle.

As I said above the car does not like to cruise around at 14.7:1 AFR. It is also idling with the wideband pegged lean.

So I have decided to try and force open loop and run in that.

If open loop is enabled and the O2 sensors are not used, should I remove them? I assume without them being heated, they will plug up and foul? One is brand new so I don't want to ruin it.

What tables and values do I need to worry about while tuning in open loop? Do all the MAF, load, and spark tables stay the same? Is it just adjustments to the base fuel table?

I assume any tuning adjustments I have made up to this point will need changing also?

How is idle tuning affected by forced open loop?
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 09, 2018 5:32 am

make sure the o2 sensor enable switch is getting a good ground. Its the wire that has an o ring and clips to the back of the head. That wire is the hego ground reference. If its not getting a good solid ground the hegos will not turn on.

no you can keep them, best to so you can see if you go lean at WOT

in open loop the hegos are just ignored, they get 12v heater power from the ignition switch, only the eec-v's have hego heater pins to turn the hego heaters on and off

base fuel is just target fuel it cannot dial fuel in, since your engine wants to be at 13.5, go change all the 1.000 values to 0.922

then simply go play with the maf transfer to get the engine running better

without having any way to read the afr you cannot dial your fuel in so you have to tune it like a carb and adjust the maf transfer to see if the engine likes it or not, the best way to do it is to get it up to operating temp, at idle go adjust the maf flow at the mafv your idling at by reducing the flow by multiplying it by 0.95 and updating it, keep doing that until the engine starts dropping rpm and IPSIBR starts shooting up. Then multiply it by 1.05% to give it back 5% to make her happy again. At that point youve reached the leanest point the engine happily idles at and youve dialed in that maf point. Hold the throttle to reach the next mafv point and start over again. Dial in each point as well as you can until you cant get to any higher mafv points. Then to dial in those higher points you have to drive the vehicle. Hold the maf sable at that next mafv while driving and dial it in. Keep repeating until the engine runs as well as you can make it.

idle is unaffected by open or closed loop you still adjust it no differently than you would otherwise
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 09, 2018 6:04 am

i just added this to the fuel write up as well as more details on adjusting it past half throttle and WOT

http://www.efidynotuning.com/fuel.htm#blind
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Wed May 09, 2018 7:26 am

decipha wrote:make sure the o2 sensor enable switch is getting a good ground. Its the wire that has an o ring and clips to the back of the head. That wire is the hego ground reference. If its not getting a good solid ground the hegos will not turn on.

no you can keep them, best to so you can see if you go lean at WOT

in open loop the hegos are just ignored, they get 12v heater power from the ignition switch, only the eec-v's have hego heater pins to turn the hego heaters on and off

base fuel is just target fuel it cannot dial fuel in, since your engine wants to be at 13.5, go change all the 1.000 values to 0.922

then simply go play with the maf transfer to get the engine running better

without having any way to read the afr you cannot dial your fuel in so you have to tune it like a carb and adjust the maf transfer to see if the engine likes it or not, the best way to do it is to get it up to operating temp, at idle go adjust the maf flow at the mafv your idling at by reducing the flow by multiplying it by 0.95 and updating it, keep doing that until the engine starts dropping rpm and IPSIBR starts shooting up. Then multiply it by 1.05% to give it back 5% to make her happy again. At that point youve reached the leanest point the engine happily idles at and youve dialed in that maf point. Hold the throttle to reach the next mafv point and start over again. Dial in each point as well as you can until you cant get to any higher mafv points. Then to dial in those higher points you have to drive the vehicle. Hold the maf sable at that next mafv while driving and dial it in. Keep repeating until the engine runs as well as you can make it.

idle is unaffected by open or closed loop you still adjust it no differently than you would otherwise


I do have a wideband on the displaying readouts on the dash and connected to egr pin #27 so tunerpro is dataloging it.

So just to be sure before i make the open loop change and start tuning, there is no possible way in closed loop to add fuel? At 14.7:1 it bucks at very light throttle. It would not work to set the closed loop commanded AFR to say 13:1? Is that too far off of what the factory O2 sensors can adjust properly?

I also experience heavy exhaust popping/crackling on closed throttle decel. During closed throttle decel the wideband displays (- - -) nothing because its off the scale lean. Is this a symptom of closed loop trying to control fuel? Will i be able to address this in open loop tuning?
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby Paulie » Wed May 09, 2018 10:21 am

89fast5oh wrote:

So just to be sure before i make the open loop change and start tuning, there is no possible way in closed loop to add fuel? At 14.7:1 it bucks at very light throttle. It would not work to set the closed loop commanded AFR to say 13:1? Is that too far off of what the factory O2 sensors can adjust properly?

I also experience heavy exhaust popping/crackling on closed throttle decel. During closed throttle decel the wideband displays (- - -) nothing because its off the scale lean. Is this a symptom of closed loop trying to control fuel? Will i be able to address this in open loop tuning?

There is no possible way for closed loop to target anything other than stoich (14.7:1 for gasoline)
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby SlowBox » Wed May 09, 2018 11:35 am

89fast5oh wrote:I also experience heavy exhaust popping/crackling on closed throttle decel. During closed throttle decel the wideband displays (- - -) nothing because its off the scale lean. Is this a symptom of closed loop trying to control fuel? Will i be able to address this in open loop tuning?


It's showing lean because it's misfiring and allowing oxygen into the exhaust. Play with the transient fuel decel multiplier (MEFTRD) and see if it gets better. I like some closed throttle crackling personally, but I can see where too much would be irritating.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 09, 2018 2:59 pm

odd that it would cackle being off the scale lean. Are you sure it doesn't cackle right when you close the throttle then stops cackling when the wideband reads off the scale lean? if so thats due to decel fuel shut off turning the injectors off which is normal.

Otherwise if its not dfso and lean cackling you need to either kick up the maf flow down low if that mafv is below idle, or reduce the low slope to enrich down low, or kick up the injector offset at that voltage, which ever you determine to be the cause of the decel lean out

btw, cackling can be caused by insufficient exhaust delta pressure too
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Wed May 09, 2018 7:32 pm

SlowBox wrote:
89fast5oh wrote:I also experience heavy exhaust popping/crackling on closed throttle decel. During closed throttle decel the wideband displays (- - -) nothing because its off the scale lean. Is this a symptom of closed loop trying to control fuel? Will i be able to address this in open loop tuning?


It's showing lean because it's misfiring and allowing oxygen into the exhaust. Play with the transient fuel decel multiplier (MEFTRD) and see if it gets better. I like some closed throttle crackling personally, but I can see where too much would be irritating.


Ill see if that does anything. I see the A9L2 has a value of .500 while the A9L shows double at 1.000.

It will crackle while in neutral reving it past 2500 RPM and releasing the gas pedal. It will do that at any RPM I rev to and release.

It will also crackle while driving in gear and letting off the gas and have the transmission bring it down anywhere over 2000 RPM.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Wed May 09, 2018 7:35 pm

decipha wrote:odd that it would cackle being off the scale lean. Are you sure it doesn't cackle right when you close the throttle then stops cackling when the wideband reads off the scale lean? if so thats due to decel fuel shut off turning the injectors off which is normal.

Otherwise if its not dfso and lean cackling you need to either kick up the maf flow down low if that mafv is below idle, or reduce the low slope to enrich down low, or kick up the injector offset at that voltage, which ever you determine to be the cause of the decel lean out

btw, cackling can be caused by insufficient exhaust delta pressure too


It didn't crackle at all no matter what with the same engine combo and stock A9L or the WMS SDS system.

I will try the above suggestions after I start making the change to forced open loop.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Wed May 09, 2018 9:02 pm

in that case its most likely timing then, you can kick up the dashpot spark multiplier function to all 1.000
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Thu May 10, 2018 7:58 pm

decipha wrote:in that case its most likely timing then, you can kick up the dashpot spark multiplier function to all 1.000


I'm now running forced open loop.

I didn't need to change anything timing related. There is no longer any closed throttle/decel popping.

I will need to make some MAF adjustments to get the light cruising into the 13-13.5 range. They are still around 15-16:1. One thing of note is that with slight pressure on the gas pedal to control speed makes the AFR gauge swing to 11.5:1 rich for a slight second. Is that just how it is?

I also got a flashing check engine light while I was driving. Which is a first.

The only codes it showed was:

13 - Normal idle not within specified range
41 - Oxygen sensor signal - Will the computer still throw a code about wild AFR readings even in forced open loop?
63 - Throttle position sensor or circuit - I had unplugged the TPS sensor to make a throttle stop screw adjustment while stopped and idling.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Fri May 11, 2018 7:12 am

no once you get your fuel dialed in all will be better

i have the check engine light set to flash in the a9l2 so you know you have a major problem

it through the code for the TPS
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Fri May 11, 2018 8:14 am

decipha wrote:no once you get your fuel dialed in all will be better

i have the check engine light set to flash in the a9l2 so you know you have a major problem

it through the code for the TPS


I hope the check engine light was just for the TPS, it started flashing 15 minutes after I had unplugged and plugged the TPS back in. I drove around and it randomly came on.

I have been trying to dial in the idle but can't seem to ever get the IPSIBR down to > 0.050. It averages around 0.600. Opening the throttle stop screw with the TPS unplugged makes it idle way too high.

Is IPSIBR something I have to worry about or is that only used when you supply someone a custom Decipha tune?

I am going to start from scratch and do a base idle reset and follow the idle dialing in page.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Fri May 11, 2018 9:40 am

no need to unplug the tps, open the set screw with the key off and check ipsibr again when its back up to temp

if its idling too high wih ipsibpr near 0 then that means you arent looking at dsdrpm to see what idle speed your commanding
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Fri May 11, 2018 12:52 pm

I see a lot of reference to ipsibpr to be near 0 or 0.050 max. But what exactly is ipsibpr and why should it be near 0?
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Fri May 11, 2018 3:44 pm

ipsibr is the instantaneous idle air correction for idle aka the idle air integrator. Its how much air the ecu has to add to reach target idle DSDRPM. When the throttle stop is set correctly it should be near 0 at a warm stable idle. If idle air is off you can't dial in dashpot nor the isc multiplier for startups.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Sat May 12, 2018 2:30 pm

decipha wrote:no need to unplug the tps, open the set screw with the key off and check ipsibr again when its back up to temp

if its idling too high wih ipsibpr near 0 then that means you arent looking at dsdrpm to see what idle speed your commanding


Your instructions for non-decipha tunes or base idle reset on stock tune as well as efidynotuning custom tune state the TPS must be unplugged.
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Sat May 12, 2018 3:28 pm

correct it has to be unplugged when you open the throttle stop otherwise the ecu will set the part throttle flag since closed throttle tps will be above ratch

ratch is the lowest tps voltage since key on

However, if the KEY IS OFF as i specified then you can open the throttle stop all day long and it won't matter since the ecu doesn't update ratch until the key is turned on
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Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby 89fast5oh » Sun May 13, 2018 11:59 am

decipha wrote:correct it has to be unplugged when you open the throttle stop otherwise the ecu will set the part throttle flag since closed throttle tps will be above ratch

ratch is the lowest tps voltage since key on

However, if the KEY IS OFF as i specified then you can open the throttle stop all day long and it won't matter since the ecu doesn't update ratch until the key is turned on


How far is too far to open the throttle stop? I have probably 4 or 5 turns from closed and the ipsibpr is still around 0.100. Do I just keep going until it is down to >0.050? Wont the blade be open so far at some point that the TPS sensor will read too high, or it would cause other issues?
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Vehicle Information: 1989 LX. 408W 10.7:1, FTI hyd roller .622"/.608" int/exh, AFR 185s, Edelbrock Victor EFI 5.8, 47lb injectors, 75mm MAF & throttle body, 1 3/4" long tubes, 2.5" full exhaust, TKO600, 4.10s.

Re: Adding/subtracting FUEL & Closed Loop operation

Unread postby decipha » Sun May 13, 2018 12:45 pm

No such thing as too far. IPSIBR will tell you when you have the throttle stop set correctly. If its at .1 then its not far off and you need to open it just a smidgen more. The TPS voltage is absolutely useless so long as it reads higher when the throttle is pressed its perfect.
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