Off the shelf vs custom cam

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Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:09 pm

Hi All. As the title says. Anyone had any experience with a custom cam? Any real improvement? David Vizard has a procedure outlined in his books on how to pick one best suited for your engine. I have used that, data from dyno sim5 and data from Larry Meaux's Pipe Max to pick mine. 331 with Afr185s 9:1 comp cams xe274hr. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:08 pm

I've been drinking the the custom cam Koolaid for quite some time. :) I've done all my business with Ed Curtis of Flowtech Induction in Rhode Island, but there are a few others I would trust as well. When I was a kid I put in a bunch of huge "wrong cams" and wanted no part of that with an EFI combo. Mr Curtis has sold so many custom combos (hundreds that I am aware of on corral.net Mustang forum alone). With my first stang combo it was pretty cool to tell him I want a 310HP NA 306 with AFR165 heads. Broad flat power curve from 2500 to 6000rpm, rowdy idle that can still be tamed to idle at 700 etc. Answers every question I might have regarding exhaust, valve springs, gear ratio etc, xxx mpg blah, blah.blah. His prediction was off by 1 HP on my first dyno pull. It exceeded the goal with a bit of tuning, I could go on and on. Can I pick a cam off the shelf and get the same result? I suppose I could get lucky and get close if I copied a known combo. There are a lot of great off the shelf cams out there, but are they tailored to YOUR combo? I know he uses software of course. But he also has a ton of experience with all the major cylinder heads, and was a successful Mustang drag Class racer. He is very aware of the OTC cams he must outperform. The broad torque curves are what sold me. I'm still tuning the current combo but the first one was a huge success. Told him what my goals were and now I just have to hold up my end of the deal and make it happen. You'll laugh given our current conversations. When I sent in my data sheet for my current combo his first email back was one sentence......"Yeah, I can help you bust that T-5" Dewayne. :) I told him what intake I wanted to run and he sent pics showing how to port it myself as he has used the intake numerous times.

Anyway, IMO the bottom line is if I go off the shelf cam, and buy just one wrong combo part, then I am back to even on the 50 bucks I saved. I think my custom cams are probably worth a tenth or so in the quarter, a couple mph of trap speed, and far more fun to drive on the street. I base that off what I see the kids doing around here that are just winging their combo selections.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:54 am

Hi Dewayne I was always curious about the custom cam thing but have never bitten the bullet and tried one. Maybe when I have some spare cash I will try one I have heard lots of good things about Ed Curtis. I know ... spare cash, when does that ever happen. Maybe I just won't eat next month. That should do it. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:37 pm

Ed does awesome work. He can come off a little cocky (because he is lol), but if he tells you something, it's because he knows it to be true from earlier build experiences. I consider him one of the top ten authorities on stang motor/combos in the world. Woody from Fordstrokers.com is near the top of that list too IMO. He is awesome to work with. Woody's (Jim's) shop is just a couple hours away. He is living my dream, assembling HP motors in a carpeted assembly room, :)

Anyway, most of us are on a budget. IMO, the secret is learning when to try to save 50 bucks and when not to. Don't buy parts twice because you guessed wrong. If there is anything more important in engine building than a cam I sure don't know what it would be. Skilled tuners like Decipha can tame a cam some with a tune, but he can't make it match the rest of your induction. It's right or it isn't. The "personality" is set as soon as you degree in that cam.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:34 pm

Another satisfied Ed Curtis customer here and what he said.^^^^^

When I was working on my heads; Ed sent me pics of how to lay back the combustion chambers and unshroud the valves.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:46 pm

Hi Guys It's always nice to hear good things about someone and their work especially when you might need their services. It makes me wonder how well matched my cam is now vs a custom. I am aware that it is impossible to know without trying one. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:10 pm

quartermaster wrote:Hi Guys It's always nice to hear good things about someone and their work especially when you might need their services. It makes me wonder how well matched my cam is now vs a custom. I am aware that it is impossible to know without trying one. Andrew


I even specified that I needed enough vacuum for power brakes. Ed takes everything into consideration. I also contacted Bullet cams and the cam they recommended was more of a race cam even though I specified I wanted to use a low stall converter, good vacuum, and I wanted the engine very streetable.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:29 pm

Bullet has a great rep too. It's all about making sure they understand exactly what you want from the combo.

Andrew, one thing that is nice is you can tell them what you already have, and get a good answer on what kind of improvement you might get. Custom cams don't magically give you peak 50HP over a decent OTS cam. At times they can widen the power band though. I've seen some FTI combos improve an ET by 3/10s+, but peak HP is about the same. It is easy to fall in love with a dyno print, but the pros know what really gets you 1320ft faster. So many of the SBF cam designs are way behind modern grinds.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Sun Aug 30, 2015 12:59 pm

Hi Dewayne That's kind of what I've been thinking about ots cams. Not that they are necessarily that bad but I think that they are made to give the average ( un informed ) customer what they think they want, perhaps protect the customer a bit when they pick a cam that is too big by having wider lobe centers and lets face it, to sell parts. I have never been a believer that a mass air fuel injected engine has to have a wide lobe center. Speed density more so because of the map sensor, but mass air, I just don't buy it. I have read some good articles from David Vizard and the likes and they don't subscribe to that theory either. Not that I am a Vizard worshiper but he sure as heck knows more than me. The other thing is that ots cams almost always have split duration and I think it was Crower or Howards cams that had an article that said not so. For the average guy with full exhaust probably so but if you have done some research and planning you can have a pretty efficient full system. I have read that pretty much the only time you want longer exhaust duration is so that you can sacrifice some exhaust valve diameter in favour if increased intake diameter but still keep the exhaust flow the same. I am by no means any expert and am open minded but so far that's the way I see it. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:21 pm

All my professional custom cam recommendations, purchased or not, were split duration and lift, to at least a small degree. I'm no expert, but perfectly matching duration, intake to exhaust sounds a little too coincidental to me. If you have links to the dissenting opinions I would enjoy reading about it.

On a side note, half the cams installed are not even degreed in. Those who don't bother don't even have the cam they think they purchased.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:43 pm

Hi Dewayne Not much time today. I will see what I can find to support my theory. I'm not stuck on it mind you. Talk tomorrow. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:55 am

I don't want to come off like an expert because clearly I am not or I wouldn't be hiring people to pick my cam profile. :)

Here is my simplistic reasoning on why it seems ridiculous that one could make a blanket statement that intake and exhaust) duration (or lift) should match. We have a 302CI engine designed probably around 1962. Sold with inefficient heads for decades. Fast forward and now we have a long list of heads from AFR, Canfield,Brodix, Ford Racing etc. Add in Trickflow with their bold changes to head designs, rotating the chamber, raising the ports. We have heads from 160CC ports to 225 and beyond. These heads are proven on a flowmeter beyond a doubt to have VERY different airflow capabilities. Efficiency not only varies from head to head, but the capability from exhaust to intake on THE SAME HEAD are often not equally efficient. Some heads are known to be particulary inefficient deficient on the EX port vs the IN. That has to be accounted for if you want peak performance

Now lets add in the intake. Running a Explorer intake or my fully ported Victor EFI? The HCI combinations are endless. I hire a custom cam guy to account for all this and make it work in the RPM range of my choosing (within constraints of the parts of course). To me it's no coincidence custom cams specs appear, well very custom vs an OTS cam.

And that is why I say it is ludicrous to state a cam's duration #s must neatly match. Not to mention that custom cams outperform OTS cams that sometimes have neatly matching lift and duration specs, on the street, on the dyno and at the track. And BTW, most custom cam guys will pick a decent OTS cam for you that is close as possible and save you a few bucks. Doesn't make sense to me, but most will do it if you insist.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby decipha » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:26 am

just throw some boost at it and the cam profile becomes much less important
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:50 am

Hi Dewayne I agree with you that the best cam for the motor is one that is made for that particular one because as you said there are so many variables. I guess when I talked about the duration I was thinking more of the ots kind. I am not very good at this computer stuff so I don't know how to post a link but if you go to Isky Racing Cams click on the tech tip 2000 heading and then click on tech tip 2003. In that section there is some interesting reading. Share your thoughts after you have read it if you wouldn't mind. Like I said I have an open mind on this subject and am always willing to read, listen and learn By the way I got my Dataq working with Calcon and can log afr. Tonight if all goes well I should be able to log boost also, then I will find out just how much I am getting. I think 14 or 15 but we shall see. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:00 am

If my memory serves, Ford grinds almost always had an exhaust bias on the very old school flat tappet cams. I think it started from the old Ford heads having poor exhaust flow. In retrospect, they were just horrible period in most cases.

Glad to hear you are proceeding. I picked up a data Q when I was dealing with BE/Innovate software commo issues but never used it. I should put it up for sale here so somebody could get some use. I'd swap it for a cheeseburger so it shouldn't be hard to sell. :)
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:03 pm

Fords did have horrible heads for the most part. Their were some exceptions. It's pretty common with FE's to use single pattern, solid tappet cams. That's what I ran in my 411. I'm not sure of the reasoning, but I'm sure it had something to do with the wedge heads and their poor combustion chambers. While I've never heard of building an engine for the exhaust used; I have been of the opinion that an exhaust should be built to compliment the engine. It's all a big compromise in a street car. Too many design constraints. Have to ever attempted to place a "H" pipe at the distance Pipemax suggest?
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:22 pm

Fasterthangas wrote: Have to ever attempted to place a "H" pipe at the distance Pipemax suggest?


No I haven't, I just make sure it is approximately large enough and routed around the obstacles. I noticed Ed just tells you what size headers are best. He knows you gotta figure it out best you can from there. Exhaust is usually only worth a few HP either way unless you get it ridiculously wrong. The Vert I am working on for a customer has huge tails. Everything else is stock but I still feel inadequate lol. I don't blame him. It's amazing how much better a mediocre exhaust sounds with some quality tips.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:35 pm

Hi All I have looked at some of those dimensions, pretty hard if not impossible in most street car applications. Here is something to think about which kind of supports my theory. What we are talking about is getting air in and out of an engine and a cam duration bias on the exhaust side which would presumably allow it to move more air ( exhaust ). But think of this for a moment. When an engine gets different ratio rocker arms either by the original builders design or by dyno testing which side gets the increased ratio? It's usually the intake side. The increase in ratio increases lift of course but also increases effective duration which together increases air flow. If the principal that extra duration is needed for extra exhaust flow then wouldn't the increased rocker ratio be better suited on the exhaust? I wont say that never happens but to the best of my memory I can't remember an engine that had a higher ratio on the exhaust. Also in an interview or on the recordings "speed secrets" Daren Morgan said about head porting that the exhaust side wasn't as important as the intake side and never stop working on the intake.( Not a direct quote but the best that I can remember) so again if that is true and if the intake side is more important then why the cam bias on the exhaust? I was trying to find something from David Vizards book How to Build Horsepower ( the newer one ) but in my skimming all I could find was the cam should be designed around the cylinder heads intake to exhaust flow ratio and other factors like compression ratio and rpm involved. The only thing I could find on duration was that exhaust duration could be lengthened to be able to reduce the exhaust valve and increase the intake valve. I know that's kind of general but I wasn't going to type the whole chapter. Thoughts Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby decipha » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:41 pm

he probably was trying to emphasize that intake is more critical

the best flowing exhaust in the world wont do you any good if you cant get any air in there to start with
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Tue Sep 01, 2015 8:14 pm

The exhaust bias in cams seems to be less than it once was, but it is often still there. My current custom cam has more lift on the intake side, but more duration on exhaust. Last combo had symmetrical lift, moderate exhaust bias on duration. I don't pretend to understand the cam timing events. Eric and I both have 347s, somewhat similar heads, and FTI custom cams. Our lift and duration #s are very close to the same. Valve event timing is substantially different. He has an auto, I have a stick and a very aggressive intake, no AC etc. I asked for a rowdy cam and didn't mind if it was somewhat tough to tune on the street. He said he asked for a cam with good street manners. I'll be curious to hear how his cam works for him. I don't think he would like my cams manners much. It doesn't really wake up until nearly 3000rpms, then it screams to beyond redline.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:12 am

Hi All. Ok here is my conclusion. The cam should be designed around the engines breathing abilities, cylinder heads intake flow vs exhaust flow and so on. Why there is almost always with ots cams a duration bias for the exhaust, I don't know. I am no cam expert by any means. Dewayne, interesting info on the cams between the two 347s. I would like to try a custom but I need to do something with my trans first. Decipha, yes Darren could have meant exactly that but I also take it that the intake side is more important because the exhaust side has an inherent advantage of cylinder pressure blow down when the exhaust valve opens where as the intake does not and needs more help. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Wed Sep 02, 2015 7:28 am

A performance cylinder head designer could shed some light on the subject. To a large degree, they are the ones driving this. They emphasize intake flow within the limited space in the combustion change (as they should). I believe they design knowing any small exhaust compromise can be "fixed" with the right cam if you want to capitalize on all the maximum potential of the head. If the builder decides to throw in something that is OTS, then it's close enough, and they still get a nice performing combo. Michael's point is valid too. There are a lot more forced induction combos on the street these days. A good head/cam combo isn't nearly as critical. You can still make enough power to exceed what any factory block can withstand. There is also a huge trend toward stroker engines too. Now we are trying to feed 20% more cubes with a head the same size outside dimensions. I think strokers are creating the need for bigger and better heads more than anything else.

I haven't done so lately, but I used to constantly read up on the air flow specs on the new heads. On two occasions I bought the best head $1500 could buy at the time. 300RWHP was a very nice 302/306 build. 3-5 years later that combo is "old news" and you've left NA 25+ HP on the table. 160-170cc was regarded as the "perfect" sized 302 street head. That changed somewhat, and so do the cams for the new NA combos.

Sorry for the rambling post, but there is a lot going on in induction design that has a big impact on modern cam design. More to your original point, the cam manufacturers/retailers can't inventory 50 different OTS cams for a SBF which hasn't been used in a new Mustang for 20 years . But they don't have to, as they are the same folks that are grinding the custom cams.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby decipha » Wed Sep 02, 2015 11:16 am

heads should never be the limiting factor on an engine, the cam should be

im a firm believer in tossing 225s on a stock 302
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:04 pm

decipha wrote:heads should never be the limiting factor on an engine, the cam should be

im a firm believer in tossing 225s on a stock 302


Without some serious qualification , that statement is complete B.S. Those heads will need numerous supporting NA mods, or a power adder, which makes it far from a "stock" 302. In the absence of those supporting mods I am confident it will be a worthless turd on the street and the track. No amount of miracle tuning will fix it.

I am well aware how much air stock 302 HO induction will flow and so are you. TMOSS has proven 1000 times he can make a 5.0 run faster with a simple lower intake port. The stock induction won't even properly feed E7s at 5K rpm.

I enjoy the debate and await your rebuttal. :)
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby decipha » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:22 pm

i suppose we have two different ideas of stock, I consider a stock block/bottom end stock, I dont think snyone is going to toss 225s on a 302 and keep the stock intake

in any case i still stand by my statement, I always recommend tossing the biggest heads you can afford on your engine and limitng it with the cam

this is the same approach GM and mopar followd as well
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby red5.0fogger » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:29 pm

I think Duttweiler said " you can put the best cam in the world in an engine with bad heads and it will be a slug. However put great heads on an engine with a stock cam and it will make excellent power."
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:01 pm

red5.0fogger wrote:I think Duttweiler said " you can put the best cam in the world in an engine with bad heads and it will be a slug. However put great heads on an engine with a stock cam and it will make excellent power."


I agree with that. Cams are for refining the personality. They will move the powerband around to where you want it within some limitations. Heads make the engine IMO.

Michael, next time you see one on the net post a link to a good 225 headed 302 that isn't a WOT track only combo. It may exist but I've never seen it. A head in the 185-205 range will have a much wider and useful power curve, and still have huge peak numbers on a properly designed 302.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:51 pm

StangD wrote:The exhaust bias in cams seems to be less than it once was, but it is often still there. My current custom cam has more lift on the intake side, but more duration on exhaust. Last combo had symmetrical lift, moderate exhaust bias on duration. I don't pretend to understand the cam timing events. Eric and I both have 347s, somewhat similar heads, and FTI custom cams. Our lift and duration #s are very close to the same. Valve event timing is substantially different. He has an auto, I have a stick and a very aggressive intake, no AC etc. I asked for a rowdy cam and didn't mind if it was somewhat tough to tune on the street. He said he asked for a cam with good street manners. I'll be curious to hear how his cam works for him. I don't think he would like my cams manners much. It doesn't really wake up until nearly 3000rpms, then it screams to beyond redline.


The timing events must make quite a difference. My cam is spec'd to make power from 2200-6000rpm. I'm betting my intake offers better low end matched with the torque multiplication of the auto and a 2800 stall....It could make all the difference. I'm sure that my car is heavier though. I told ED I wanted a light to light wig splitter of a cam with decent street manners. Power comes on instantly in first gear and there's no traction to be had. Once I get it tuned; I suspect she'll be barking in second. I definitely need more line pressure to firm up shifts.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:00 pm

Fasterthangas wrote:
StangD wrote: The timing events must make quite a difference. My cam is spec'd to make power from 2200-6000rpm. I'm betting my intake offers better low end matched with the torque multiplication of the auto and a 2800 stall....It could make all the difference. I'm sure that my car is heavier though. I told ED I wanted a light to light wig splitter of a cam with decent street manners. Power comes on instantly in first gear and there's no traction to be had. Once I get it tuned; I suspect she'll be barking in second. I definitely need more line pressure to firm up shifts.


Apparently timing does make a big difference. And your car is definitely heavier. I've dumped hundreds of pounds of non-essential weight. My powerband is advertised as 2800-6500. It touched 7200 by accident once and had no problem doing so. First combo I have ever had with good valve springs and hardware. The throttle response is insane in the powerband. My Victor EFI intake is max ported and not a good street intake. I'm very proud of my port work but it is what it is, a drag car EFI intake. I'd like to try another intake but my heads are milled and so is my intake before I wanted 11-1 compression (nitrous likes compression), and CR is fairly cheap NA HP. I currently have a buck at 1500-1800 I am going to play hell taming. If I tried to parallel park right now I better have my insurance card with me. The throttle is like you said, a light switch. I think Decipha will help me tweak that when I am ready to work on transient stuff. I want my fuel perfect first so I don't chase my tail.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:01 pm

StangD wrote:
Fasterthangas wrote:
StangD wrote: The timing events must make quite a difference. My cam is spec'd to make power from 2200-6000rpm. I'm betting my intake offers better low end matched with the torque multiplication of the auto and a 2800 stall....It could make all the difference. I'm sure that my car is heavier though. I told ED I wanted a light to light wig splitter of a cam with decent street manners. Power comes on instantly in first gear and there's no traction to be had. Once I get it tuned; I suspect she'll be barking in second. I definitely need more line pressure to firm up shifts.


Apparently timing does make a big difference. And your car is definitely heavier. I've dumped hundreds of pounds of non-essential weight. My powerband is advertised as 2800-6500. It touched 7200 by accident once and had no problem doing so. First combo I have ever had with good valve springs and hardware. The throttle response is insane in the powerband. My Victor EFI intake is max ported and not a good street intake. I'm very proud of my port work but it is what it is, a drag car EFI intake. I'd like to try another intake but my heads are milled and so is my intake because I wanted 11-1 compression (nitrous likes compression), and CR is fairly cheap NA HP. I currently have a buck at 1500-1800 I am going to play hell taming. If I tried to parallel park right now I better have my insurance card with me. The throttle is like you said, a light switch. I think Decipha will help me tweak that when I am ready to work on transient stuff. I want my fuel perfect first so I don't chase my tail.
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby Fasterthangas » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:10 pm

If you really want to get the most out of your heads; unshroud the valves with a big bore. The 302 bore is 4.00" and your average 5.0 head has a combustion chamber diameter of 4.10".
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby decipha » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:27 pm

x2 a 300 shot also helps
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:25 am

Hi All I don't agree with the 225 on a 302 statement. We all know that everything has to be well matched to make a good combination. I think that for the 225 to work well you will need some serious rpm or more cubes to feed. The cross sectional area is just too large for proper port velocity which well equate to poor cylinder filling. I don't mean to dispute what you are saying because you probably know more than I do but it has been dyno proven before. Heck that is a large portion of Larrys Pipemax program. Velocity too low = turd. Velocity too fast port goes sonic, also = turd. Just look at what they do in the engine masters challenge. Alternate opinions are always welcome. While I think that my 185 are a little small for what I'm doing the trade off is better power and torque throughout most of the rpm range while sacrificing some peak power up top but its not a numbers game anyway. It's all about the most useable power or in other words the most area under the curve. If there is any proof to the contrary I would like to know because I always want to learn. Andrew
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby 85GT » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:20 am

decipha wrote:heads should never be the limiting factor on an engine, the cam should be

im a firm believer in tossing 225s on a stock 302


+1!

my 351C with 4bl heads and a crane 'thriftmaster' cam spanked everyone out there on the street back in the day. finally understand why ;)
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:49 am

quartermaster wrote:Hi All I don't agree with the 225 on a 302 statement. We all know that everything has to be well matched to make a good combination. I think that for the 225 to work well you will need some serious rpm or more cubes to feed. The cross sectional area is just too large for proper port velocity which well equate to poor cylinder filling. I don't mean to dispute what you are saying because you probably know more than I do but it has been dyno proven before. Heck that is a large portion of Larrys Pipemax program. Velocity too low = turd. Velocity too fast port goes sonic, also = turd. Just look at what they do in the engine masters challenge. Alternate opinions are always welcome. While I think that my 185 are a little small for what I'm doing the trade off is better power and torque throughout most of the rpm range while sacrificing some peak power up top but its not a numbers game anyway. It's all about the most useable power or in other words the most area under the curve. If there is any proof to the contrary I would like to know because I always want to learn. Andrew
PS. I know," just put a 300 shot to her"


First of all , now it's two 300 shots for you mister. One for each head. :)

Seriously though, I've tracked along as so many induction experts have had this cylinder head debate on the net. Ed Curtis from FTI and Jay Allen from Cammotion. Both cam/head gurus, They were both celebrated for their prowess with big induction gear on the track and had championships to prove it. They had some serious throw downs on the forums that were quite informative. Still worth reading today, though they got a little impolite sometimes. On 302 combos that saw much street action, Ed's a proponent of smaller but very high quality heads (generally 165-185 AFR combos for 302 at the time). Jay believed in the 205 TF combos. They both made big power but Ed's combos had the curve where I wanted it on my last combo. (which I regret not keeping BTW). After you read 100s of happy customers rave reviews and dyno sheets I knew what was right for me. But clearly you can skin the cat a number of different ways if everything is matched.

I've seen what the 225 heads will do on a 400+ inch 351W based strokers. Might be the perfect street head for those combos, though you can surely get away with larger. Or smaller for that matter. I've even seen a few 408s running my little TW 190s FAC heads on them with excellent street rpm results.

Anyway, what you've already said is what I believe Andrew. Get the combo matched and you will have a very fun car that does what YOU want it to do. Not my first choice but I could enjoy a GT40 combo if it was set up correctly. (skip the antiquated Ford Racing alphabet cams for me). And when I got bored with it spray per Decipha's Powah Manual. It's in chapter One, page one I believe, right after dial in your damn fuel. :)
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby quartermaster » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:34 am

Hi All I think all you have to do is look at the old boss 302. Somewhat old technology mind you but illustrates my point. ports that you could fit a tennis ball into but just did not work well on the street. As a track engine at 7500 or so... different story. Andrew 1 Decipha 0 LOL
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby 85GT » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:44 am

Except when you put the right came in. There's a post on sbftech about such a case. Some one put an even bigger cam into 302boss, think it was the 289HP solid cam. Was a total dog. Guy abandoned the project but wanted the cam. So they slapped a stock plain'ol 289/302 cam in. And all of a sudden the car became a terror...
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby 85GT » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:46 am

and exact same ports as the 4bl clevland. Granted, a few inches more, but my combo is not lacking anywhere...
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:02 pm

85GT wrote:Except when you put the right came in. There's a post on sbftech about such a case. Some one put an even bigger cam into 302boss, think it was the 289HP solid cam. Was a total dog. Guy abandoned the project but wanted the cam. So they slapped a stock plain'ol 289/302 cam in. And all of a sudden the car became a terror...


Interesting combo. The stock 302 cams were lame. It would be cool to see a dyno sheet on it. Does it exist on the net?
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Re: Off the shelf vs custom cam

Unread postby StangD » Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:05 pm

quartermaster wrote:..... Andrew 1 Decipha 0 LOL
Andrew


225s FTL lol

Andrew, we're going to be in big trouble when Decipha checks back in. :mrgreen:
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